Richard Norton Smith

[00:00:00] Matt Blumberg: Welcome to Country Over Self, defining moments in American history. Each episode we welcome a notable historian to tell us the story of a president and a choice that president made to strengthen the country without regard to the impact of that decision on himself, his power, or his party.

Welcome to Country Over Self, Defining Moments in American History. I'm your host, Matt Blumberg, and I'm here today with Richard Norton Smith, one of America's preeminent presidential historians and scholars. I could probably have Richard on this show to talk about any large number of presidents about whom he's either written or run their libraries and museums.

Lincoln, Hoover, Eisenhower, Reagan, Ford, probably others, but for today, Richard is the award winning author and editor of 10 books, including an ordinary man, the surprising life and historic presidency of Gerald R. Ford. Richard, welcome to Country Over Self. It is truly an honor to talk to you.

Well, thank you very much. So today we want to talk about our 38th president, Gerald R. Ford. I'd also love to talk a little bit about his wife, Betty Ford. And you are uniquely qualified to do that. I believe you gave the eulogy or a eulogy at each of their funerals, in addition to writing about them.

Ford, of course, 

[00:01:32] Richard Norton Smith: two very different things, by the way, two very different things find out. a eulogy, bears almost no resemblance to an honest biography. 

[00:01:43] Matt Blumberg: Fair, fair enough. so Ford of course was a very unique president in that he was the only president that was never elected, to either the presidency or the vice presidency.

he was appointed to the office of vice president by Nixon after Nixon's vice president Agnew resigned. He assumed the office of president after Nixon himself resigned, amidst the turbulence of Watergate. Ford was very well liked by people on both sides of the aisle, very well regarded as, as forthright and honest as minority leader of the house.

and with regard to our topic, country over self, I'd really like to zero in on kind of one main aspect of the Ford presidency, which is probably the most consequential decision he made, the pardon of Nixon. So, I'd love to just start, by you kind of setting the stage, you know, give everyone a reminder of the context around, around that decision.

[00:02:35] Richard Norton Smith: Well, certainly the most controversial action that he took as president and, and the best evidence of that is, 50 years later, we're still debating it. We probably will be debating it 50 years from now. You have to remember, General Ford, as you said, became president under a unique set of circumstances.

And very understandably, most historians have, have dwelt, as most journalists did at the time, on the, the burdens that this imposed upon him. The fact that he'd never been elected. Ford saw another side to it, which goes directly to your topic. Ford thought he uniquely, among modern presidents, had never sought the job, which, which imparted a kind of freedom.

He hadn't made any promises to get it, he didn't have any obligations, he initially at least wasn't thinking about re election. So what that did was give him the latitude that very few presidents have. to, in effect, from day one, in his own mind, put country over self. And the pardon is a classic example.

Fifty years later, it is fashionable in some quarters to criticize the pardon, suggesting that, Ford Perhaps unknowingly, opened the door to misbehavior by later presidents. The problem with that is twofold. One, we don't elect our presidents for their clairvoyance. And two, you can judge a president by any criteria you want, but you can only understand the president and his actions, within the context of their time.

Gerald Ford, spent three weeks in August, discovering day by day by day, how much he didn't know, how much greater were the problems. Because remember, he had no transition. He had no long conversations with his predecessor or others about the policy agenda, or the issues that he might have to decide. He couldn't, he couldn't acknowledge to anyone that he might even become, might possibly become president.

On August 28th, well, for example, he had no idea. On august 9th when he became president that the economy was headed south that U.S.-Soviet relations were fraying that there were a whole host of things that either he didn't know about or he he didn't know in sufficient detail and day by day by day he is being to some degree Overwhelmed by the realization that he's in this job that he never aspired to And then he's spending 25 of his time On the problems of one man.

call it naive. Ford could be naive. he was unprepared for the extent to which, for example, the national media, and therefore the national conversation, continued to be preoccupied with Richard Nixon, his tapes, his papers, his legal prospects. 

[00:06:03] Matt Blumberg: Right. 

[00:06:03] Richard Norton Smith: and, and this came to a head on, on August 28th, he has his first full scale press conference, because he's been dealing with the economy and, and Soviet relations, et cetera, et cetera. He naively assumed that what the press is going to want to talk about. And of course, the press want to talk about Richard Nixon, 

[00:06:25] Matt Blumberg: right. 

[00:06:25] Richard Norton Smith: Ford left that press conference unhappy with himself. He thought he hadn't handled it well. That he had given contradictory answers. And he had, he went back to the Oval Office and I think it's, I think he had prompt, I think he was leaning. process of elimination, if nothing else, toward a pardon, but I think the decision was taken that afternoon. He called in Phil Buchan, who was his White House Counselor, but more than that, his oldest friend, former law partner in Grand Rapids and others, and he said something very Fordian.

He talked about the burden that Leon Jaworski, the special prosecutor, was uniquely, carrying. He, he would be the man, in effect, who would decide whether or not to prosecute Nixon. And he thought that was unfair, and he would relieve Leon Jaworski of that burden. he said, if my conscience tells me this is right, I should listen to my conscience.

I've listened to it until now, and look where it got me. And, Phil Buchan knew Ford well enough to know that he's made up his mind. Now, in retrospect, if you could go back, turn the clock back, you might wish that Buchan had argued a bit more. Not necessarily about the wisdom of the pardon, but the timing of the pardon and how the, how it was explained and justified to the American people.

In any event, it was decided that I mean, Ford was in a rush for a simple reason. He didn't want it to leak. He knew that if it leaked, it would vastly complicate, the whole enterprise. It wouldn't necessarily call it off, but it would make it much harder. The problem with that is, attitude with that, need for secrecy was that it precluded him from talking to other people, including trusted outside advisors, people like Mel Weir, for example, who, by the way, on his own, had his own scheme, to try to take this out of Ford's hands and entrust it to, to Congress.

so on Sunday morning, it was decided, he had sent, a member of his staff to talk to Nixon, ostensibly to get a statement of contrition, which most people thought was pretty weak. and again, Ford can be criticized for not, he said later on, if he, if he changed anything, he would have held out for something stronger.

It came as a shock because, of course, the country had not been prepared. Ford made things worse, arguably, politically, by entrusting to Phil Buchan, meeting with the press the next day, explaining, justifying. Here's where it gets complicated. Phil Buchan, a man of profound decency, very strong faith, was not personally convinced that a pardon was morally justified.

Phil Buchan, on his own and without telling the president, brought his Grand Rapids pastor, To Washington, D. C. And Duncan Littlefair, by name, he wrote a proposed statement for the president to use. I don't believe the president used it, but it doesn't matter, because Phil Buchan used it. And it emphasized mercy.

And mercy was the overriding rationale that Phil Buchan, ostensibly speaking for the president, cited in justifying the pardon. Well, the country wasn't feeling very merciful in September of 1974. And Ford, who quite frankly had allowed this to happen, was nevertheless somewhat miffed because he thought, that's not why I'm pardoning him.

I'm pardoning him as a practical, political, matter. I'm not forgiving him. I'm trying to forget him. I'm trying to move on. I'm trying to change the conversation. I'm trying to prevent, he'd been told, backdoor channel. to Special Prosecutor Jaworski, there'd be at least one year, could be up to two years, before a Nixon trial could take place.

Well, that would have consumed all of Ford's appointed presidency. And Ford knew Washington, he knew the press corps, he knew that the next two years would not be about fighting inflation or dealing with the Soviets, or leaving Vietnam honorably. It would be preoccupied defined by Richard Nixon, 

[00:11:47] Matt Blumberg: you know, on the subject of Vietnam is an interesting one.

I had forgotten until I just reread your book about the convergence of the earned reentry program for Daft Dodgers with Clemency for Nixon and how that set off. that, that juxtaposition was, was not a good look. 

[00:12:10] Richard Norton Smith: And in fact, that's a great point because again, understandably 50 years later, we look at the pardon as an isolated event.

Ford never thought that way. Ford said very early in his presidency, again, to revert to what I said earlier, he had the luxury of not having to decide things, based on the short term political gain. And he'd been talking with his kids who were of draft age, had there been a draft, and they were, among others, strongly urging him to pursue some kind of amnesty, conditional, otherwise.

to try to begin to heal the wounds of this incredibly unpopular war. And Ford actually said that, I think I quote him in the book, that, if I'm serious about healing those wounds, I've got to reach out to those kids who dodged for draft or who left the country for whatever reason to avoid the war. And that's exactly what he did.

But being Ford, of course.  He, he, he picked the hardest single audience. And again, there'd been no preparation. he went to the VFW, you know, a lot of 11 days into his presidency. And he didn't call it an amnesty. He didn't call it a conditional amnesty. He called it a earned re entry. Sounds like splitting hairs, but in fact, that's really what it was It was an attempt to, give people an opportunity through community service and the like to quote, earn their way back.

it fell to Jimmy Carter on the first day of his presidency to complete the process by issuing an unconditional amnesty. The fact of the matter is, although he got a standing ovation from that audience, They recognized courage when they saw it. They very quickly voted their disapproval of the policy. And I've always believed, again, we look at the, pardon as an isolated event.

Ironically, the morning of the pardon, there were polls in the Washington papers, That showed Ford at the zenith of his popularity. There's a perception that the first month had gone much better than anyone had expected. He had a 57 33 lead over Ted Kennedy in a mythical 1976 race. Irony of ironies. Many years later, in 2001, it's Ted Kennedy.

along with Caroline, who presents Gerald Ford the John F. Kennedy Profiles in Courage award, specifically because of the Nixon pardon, and Senator Kennedy, who says, President Ford was right. I was wrong. That's how, in effect, history had changed its mind. At least, at least at that point in time. At that point, precisely.

You know, 20 years later, history never makes up its mind, conclusively, at least about most things. And the pardon, again, is something that, depending upon the, the light in which it is seen. If it is seen, post Clinton, For example, because Gerald Ford thought, the whole Lewinsky business cost us a year and, and, and it validated in his mind his rationale that we, we couldn't afford as a country to, to take a year off.

From the problems we're confronting  But seen in Donald Trump's America that people will put a different twist on it 

[00:16:20] Matt Blumberg: You know, I thought it was it was so interesting that you you pulled two quotes nearly right next to each other in your book Uh in the in the day of day of the partner day after the partner with tip o'neill saying this is going to cost you The 1976 election And Barry Goldwater saying history will probably thank you for this 

[00:16:42] Richard Norton Smith: And they were both right 

[00:16:44] Matt Blumberg: and they were both right. So when you, when you hear, as you said, it's more fashionable at the moment for, some historians to say, Hey, you know, this opened the door to greater problems down the road. what do you, what do you think of that? Like, does that ring true at all? When you look at what's going on today, or even when you look at things like the HW Bush pardons of the around Contra actors.

[00:17:10] Richard Norton Smith: it's an almost unanswerable question in that I understand the rationale. My response, and I certainly don't dismiss it, on the other hand, I go back to my point earlier. presidents are not clairvoyants. We elect them to make the toughest decisions, the decisions that nobody else can make.

And then to let the chips fall where they may, and, and history will be the judge. Well, guess what? there is no single verdict rendered by history, as we've seen. It's as if the jury gets to vote over and over again. there may be new evidence. Or there may simply be a, a new context in which the old evidence is reconsidered.

and I think it's, it, you know, that's the process that's playing itself out. I would wish that if, if people are going to, persist in seeing the pardon. by the light of subsequent events, that they would also pause for just a moment on the Clinton example that, that I just mentioned, because Ford's position always was And as he got older, he never, you know, maybe you would expect him, maybe some, some people would be defensive.

He certainly never changed his mind about the pardon, and he felt that his rationale had been, vindicated by what happened during the Clinton presidency, and the whole Lewinsky scandal. And the cost to the country. And if the theme of this program is putting country over self, I think Ford had a pretty good case.

[00:19:08] Matt Blumberg: When you, when you think about his administration, is there another example that comes to mind of country over self? 

[00:19:15] Richard Norton Smith: Yeah, gosh, there's a number, but certainly, certainly. At the time of the fall of Saigon, which he said was the worst day of his presidency. And it was humiliating to see the United States after the incredible sacrifice of blood and treasure of 25 years, in effect, be kicked out of Indochina.

And, Again, like the part, you know, he never asked for this, and yet he was the one who was there when the roof fell in. Congress, Senator Ron Nesson, his press secretary, told me the only time he ever heard Ford swear. the city had fallen, and of course Congress did what Congress sometimes does at such moments. it did not display an excess of political courage, basically it wanted to pull the ladder up and, almost pretend that we'd never been there. And the problem with that was it left perhaps hundreds of thousands of South Vietnamese allies at the mercy of the Communist North. And Ford's position from day one, Congress reneged on a deal with the president to provide several hundred million dollars specifically for the resettlement of Vietnamese refugees, as many people, people who we knew because they had been actively working with Americans over the years, whose lives were, immediately at, at, at risk.

so, I mean, the whole point of the famous helicopter, airlift, which by the way is a fraction of a much wider ongoing. effort to try, obviously, to get every American out of Southeast Asia, but also tens of thousands of Vietnamese allies. And, when Ron Nesson brought the Associated Press wire copy saying that Congress had just basically reneged on the, the money.

He said it was the only time Ford ever, he ever heard Ford swear. And he didn't, he didn't stop there. He, I think it's the finest hour of his presidency. it certainly was not to his political advantage. but the fact is, there were a lot of people of conscience. For example, he, Pope Paul weighed in.

The American Jewish. Congress, the World Council of Churches, a number of Democratic state governors and mayors. So it's a bipartisan effort. And as Ford said, we didn't close the door. to the Hungarians after the revolution in 56. We certainly didn't close the door to Cubans fleeing Castro.

And he said, damn it, we're not going to do it now. And he went on the air. It's, it's the best example of Ford using the bully pulpit of the presidency to, in effect, shame Congress into re reversing itself. And, the first wave, about 125, 000 and there would be successive waves later, all the way up into the Carter administration.

But I think there's a classic example of Ford putting, not only country, Ahead of self, but conscience above politics, 

[00:23:12] Matt Blumberg: you know, just listening to you talk about this. It occurs to me that anyone that claims that the withdrawal from Afghanistan was the worst day in American history should probably do a little bit of reading about the fall of Saigon.

Not, not, not that, not that Afghanistan was handled perfectly either, but, it's a different scale. 

[00:23:34] Richard Norton Smith: It is sobering. To those of us who, who practiced the historian's craft, how seemingly little we learn and how frequently history, tends to repeat itself. 

[00:23:49] Matt Blumberg: So let's pivot, and talk about Betty Ford for a few minutes.

And, some of these episodes, I'm, have an opportunity to ask some country over self questions about the first lady. And this one is a great example of one. And I think, you know, when, when people think about Betty Ford, just like when people think about Gerald Ford, they, they, they go straight to pardon.

I think when people think about Betty Ford, they go straight to how public, she was both about her, her cancer surgery, which was almost like an emergency or at least unplanned operation. and then in the years after the Fords left the White House, how public she was about her addiction to alcohol and painkillers, which had been going on for a long time, but it wasn't until then that she was very public about that.

And I'd love to hear you talk about that a little bit and, and the insights you have into her decision to be so transparent, with the public on those very personal topics like is that country over self or was she literally just, you know, unburdening herself and almost following the 12 step process.

program just very publicly or, or some of both. 

[00:25:02] Richard Norton Smith: Yeah, I was going to say they're not mutually exclusive. I always say that the two most dangerous words in the English language are either or. You got to put either or out of the, out of the, out of the whole conversation. In the case of the breast cancer, it was a very abrupt and it was, Frankly quite accidental.

a friend of hers, with whom she was working, her assistant in effect, had an appointment for a checkup, regular checkup. And she said, why did you come along? And really on a, almost on a whim, Mrs. Ford went, they went out to Bethesda Naval Hospital. And she could tell, I mean, the doctor obviously didn't give her a diagnosis on the spot, after he conducted a breast exam, but she could sense something wasn't right.

And, And she knew it that evening when a couple doctors showed up at the White House and wanted the president in on the conversation. 

[00:26:09] Matt Blumberg: Yeah, that's never a good sign. 

[00:26:12] Richard Norton Smith: Well, I suspect it is the conversation that every woman dreads. And no doubt, many a husband. And, There was really no time to waste. Now, classic Betty Ford. They wanted to do this immediately. ostensibly they wanted to do a biopsy to confirm their suspicions. If in fact they were confirmable. and then conduct surgery. Well, it turned out the next day was the dedication of the LBJ Grove and Mrs. Johnson and the girls were, were going to be there and were supposed to have lunch with the First Lady and, and then return to the White House.

And, and there was no way that she was going to miss that or that she was going to inconvenience them. Or, Equally important that she was going to risk making that event about her. This was the Johnson family's day in the sun. And that's exactly what happened. And there's a picture, there's a photograph, extraordinary photograph.

She gave them a tour of the family quarters so they could see how things had changed since their tenure. And at the foot of the bed, if you look really close, you can see what looks like a small suitcase. Well, that's exactly what it is. It was packed because as soon as she said goodbye to the Johnsons, she was waiting for Bethesda.

And, The surgery was good. Well, the test was conducted the following morning, in short order. They determined that, in fact, it was malignant. The president is back in the Oval Office trying to concentrate on a speech that he's about to give to a conference on inflation, and you can imagine, his mind was elsewhere.

But the interesting thing is, this was something the family discussed. It was very much a family decision, but there was really never any doubt that they would break with precedent, wouldn't be the first or last time, and go public with this information. But even they had no idea, of what the impact would be.

Mrs. Ford said, whenever she was sort of tempted, after the surgery, to to feel depressed, you know, she turned on her radio and heard these reports of women all over America in untold numbers who, inspired by her example, were going to their doctors for exams, were, were, were discovering this disease and were arguably saving their lives.

And that obviously, was a kind of medicine that you can't put in a bottle 

[00:29:08] Matt Blumberg: yeah, and I believe one of the things you talked about in the book was that she said, you know, get the news out while I'm on the table. 

[00:29:14] Richard Norton Smith: Well, no, absolutely. It's hard for us to, again, in its own way, sort of like the discussion about the pardon. 50 years later, there are all these things that we assume. That we take for granted. It's the norm, because it's our norm. But the norm in 1974 was very, very different. The fact of the matter is, you didn't mention breast cancer in polite conversation. There were obituaries. Of women who died of this disease and invariably it was referred to as a wasting disease. There were euphemisms you couldn't say breast 

[00:29:57] Matt Blumberg: Well, one of the things I found shocking. I was doing some reading this past summer about George Wallace And George Wallace, you know Forget about his politics for a minute, right? He was term limited out Of the governorship in Alabama his wife Ran. Lurleen. Lurleen. And she served for a couple years until she died of cancer and what, what I discovered when I was doing some reading about this was she didn't even know she had cancer.

And so this is six, this is six years earlier or seven years earlier than what you're talking about. Not 50. She didn't even know she had cancer because it was the custom at the time for the doctors to tell the husband and not to tell the patient. 

[00:30:38] Richard Norton Smith: Exactly. That was the norm, in the late 60s, early 70s.

So you can imagine what a, seismic impact this had. First of all, the shock that out of the blue, the First Lady, this woman who we're just beginning to get to know from millions of people, and it's funny, I, I remember Mary McGrory, the columnist, who certainly was no political sympathizer, with the Fords, but she wrote this.

wonderfully poignant and I think very true column in which she expressed surprise at her own reaction to the news that she felt so emotionally moved by this. And she said, you know, all America was sitting in that. emergency room, you know, that recovery room last Saturday when Mrs. Ford came out of, surgery.

And it, it, it, it's a great illustration, putting politics aside, of how modern presidents, first ladies, family members become in a way extensions of our, of our own families. 

[00:31:59] Matt Blumberg: Yeah. And when you think about the, announcement of, alcoholism and addiction, many years later. 

[00:32:07] Richard Norton Smith: And that was harder. That was harder because she, and again, you know, drug addiction being what, you know, what it is, is terribly isolating.

And in the isolation, she was absolutely convinced that it would embarrass her husband. And then that, that they couldn't possibly, and he made it very clear, it won't embarrass me. remember there had been an intervention. The only reason she was in that facility was because the family, and it reached the point where, quite frankly, I believe she would probably not have survived a year.

It had gotten that bad. And it was a combination of alcohol and, an addiction to pain and other pills. She was taking 25 pills a day. and she's a very frail woman. I would say, she looked deceptively, I won't say weak, frail. because she obviously had extraordinary strength of character, And, she was willing to do what it took and the family was willing to do what it took and damn the headlines, damn the, whatever temporary embarrassment might or might not have accompanied this.

It was overwhelmingly, an occasion for people of whom there were millions. who were in a similar situation themselves or who had a family member who was and suddenly Betty Ford, Betty Ford is, is unique among first ladies. She was, a significant first lady, but historically her real impact, her real influence, her continuing legacy, if you will, dates very widely to her post White House life.

Thank you. And above all, there's a marvelous story, nobody would have predicted it, including the principals, in November 1976, but, Jimmy Carter and Gerald Ford became very good friends. Even more, sort of, unlikely, if you know much about politics. The wives became very good friends and they used to lobby Capitol Hill together.

They were a formidable team. Mrs. Carter of course would, advocate the cause of, the mental, mentally ill and, Mrs. Ford on, alcohol and addiction. And, the, the two of them, they were formidable individually. They were greater than the sum of their parts and, the families and that is now extended to children.

are actually very close. So, at this moment in history when it is easy to be

almost despondent about the degree of, of animosity, of, of savagery almost that has infected our politics, Jimmy Carter and Gerald Ford or the Bushes and Bill Clinton. They suggest that there is an alternative 

[00:35:34] Matt Blumberg: or George Bush and Michelle Obama. 

[00:35:37] Richard Norton Smith: Absolutely. 

[00:35:38] Matt Blumberg: All right. I would love to, move into our closing section, which is a few rapid fire questions.

So as I said at the beginning, you could have been on this program talking about 10 different presidents. what would the next one be on your list? Like what's the country over President and, and vignette that, that was on the cutting room floor. 

[00:35:58] Richard Norton Smith: Oh gosh. the first and greatest example as George Washington and the mere fact that at his age, against his wishes, the greatest example of sacrifice, I would argue in Washington's life was his willingness to come out of retirement.

and agreed to be president of the United States, an office that nobody knew, nobody really defined that Washington would define with every action he took or did not take. And it was, he had hoped, interesting, he'd hoped to resign halfway through the first term. I mean, that's how reluctant he was. And you start to think if he'd done that, the job could have become a kind of prime minister.

But he was dissuaded and convinced not only to see out the first term, but then against even more reluctance to agree to a second term. So, I mean, that, that's, that's the best overriding, overshadowing example. 

[00:37:08] Matt Blumberg: Right. So now let's do the opposite. What, and maybe let's set aside because we've already spoken about Nixon.

What's a poignant example you can think of of a president choosing self over country?

[00:37:19] Richard Norton Smith: Self over country? Well, I wouldn't call it poignant. I would call it selfish. I would call it self serving. I would, poignant is a compliment. and I, I think self over, any number of presidents who are regarded as failures, ultimately, probably a lot of the failure can be traced. To certainly the pre civil war presidents, the pierces and, and Buchanan.

Yeah. 

[00:37:46] Matt Blumberg: And were they acting in their own self interest or they just didn't have the moral clarity or courage or fortitude to, 

[00:37:52] Richard Norton Smith: I'm not sure you can. 

[00:37:54] Matt Blumberg: Can't separate them, 

[00:37:55] Richard Norton Smith: divide them. I'll give you an example. Andrew Johnson, who could not outgrow. . The racism of the culture that produced him, unlike his predecessor.

There's a reason why there's a Lincoln memorial on the mall and there's no Andrew Johnson memorial on the mall. Andrew Johnson was, outspokenly, racist. He, he said that this was a white man's country. And he failed to learn the ultimate lesson of the war. all you need to know about Andrew Johnson is he didn't speak of reconstruction.

He, he spoke of restoration. He wanted to turn the clock back. In other words, he wanted to put the country back together. But he would have been perfectly happy, I think, to undo emancipation. Certainly he, he didn't believe that the war had been a transformative, experience in terms of, of race relations.

[00:38:57] Matt Blumberg: Right. 

[00:38:57] Richard Norton Smith: And there's a classic example of someone who put his own personal prejudice, ahead of public policy. 

[00:39:07] Matt Blumberg: Yeah. 

[00:39:07] Richard Norton Smith: And it's, it's why it took a hundred years for another Southern president. named Johnson 

[00:39:13] Matt Blumberg: to finish the job, 

[00:39:14] Richard Norton Smith: to, to make up for the first, president Johnson, 

[00:39:19] Matt Blumberg: right? I guess not finished the job, but, but do, the, the next, the next leg of that 

[00:39:25] Richard Norton Smith: undo.

Yeah. 

[00:39:26] Matt Blumberg: The 

[00:39:27] Richard Norton Smith: worst of the damage. 

[00:39:28] Matt Blumberg: let's talk about Biden for just a minute. And I'm curious as to how you think history will judge his decision to pull out of the race. Or too soon to tell? 

[00:39:40] Richard Norton Smith: the safe answer is it's too soon to tell. But in this instance, because, of course, we don't know, we don't know what the next chapter is.

[00:39:51] Matt Blumberg: Right. 

[00:39:52] Richard Norton Smith: if, for example, Kamala Harris is elected on November 5th, certainly for the foreseeable future, it will be seen as an act of rare selflessness. And depending upon her performance in office, that will inevitably, influence Biden's decision. I would answer it this way. It's hard to think of many instances in presidential history of presidents who were a sacrifical of, of their own interest, political and, and, and otherwise. To spend your whole life preparing for, aspiring to, doing whatever it takes to, to get this job, to believe that you've brought a lifetime's experience. to doing the job to believe no doubt that in his own mind, at least that he's mastered the job and it's doing it well, I do think history more broadly speaking, and this is not unique to Biden, but I think more in Biden's case than the average president.

is the discrepancy between, say, the journalistic assessment of a president as he leaves office and the historical reappraisal that takes advantage of the perspective of time, the access to papers, and oral histories, and the sheer fact that you can compare this president's performance in dealing with the Middle East or the economy or China with how the next six or seven or eight presidents deal with the same issues.

But I think history will be much more generous in assessing Biden's significance. I'll let other people decide success, failure. Those are the eyes of the older. The fact that Joe Biden was a consequential president, the fact that infrastructure on a massive scale, the fact that The first significant steps on climate change.

I mean, if you look into the future and you believe, as I do, that these are issues that are going to be with us for a long time, that it stands to reason that future historians looking back will at least recognize, that Biden Was the first that, that Biden, cashed in his, political chips, his political capital at a time of immense polarization when it was next to impossible, we assumed, to get any, anything big and controversial through Congress.

And I think History will credit him and in many ways, like Ford, because Ford had spent 25 years on Capitol Hill, he knew what buttons to push. He was probably the most, informed president since Lyndon Johnson. I was going to say Johnson, yeah. To make government work. 

[00:43:11] Matt Blumberg: Right. 

[00:43:11] Richard Norton Smith: And Biden brought that same quality you know, it's never a perfect package, you know, you wish Ford had been a better speaker, you wish he'd had a charisma implant, you wish, you know, etc, etc. And some of the same things might be said about Joe Biden, but you know what, with the passage of time, Those stylistic issues tend to fade, and we focus, as I think we should, on the substantive or transformative events, that mark a president's passage.

[00:43:50] Matt Blumberg: Right. All right. My last question is, knowing everything, you know, about our history, about our politics, about our system of government, if you could wave a magic wand and change one thing to strengthen our system today, what would it be? 

[00:44:06] Richard Norton Smith: Oh, that's simple. I'd restore the Fairness Doctrine, because what's so much of what's wrong with our politics today, where we've, where we've gone off track is, A climate, in which, divisiveness is profitable, and consensus is seen as, almost a, a dirty word.

The fact of the matter is, in a quick bait culture, not only controversy sells, controversy is always sold, but a kind of conspiracy theory.

And again, I'll be accused of terminal nostalgia, but I think there are a lot of people, not just my age, who harbor fond memories of the Cronkites and the Brinkleys. and the severides and the perception that they didn't always get it right. I understand Cable and the desire to provide an alternative to, quote, establishment news.

It was New York centric, it was Washington centric, all of those criticisms stand, but at their best, they understood that there was such a thing as objective truth, and at the same time, that a healthy regard For the other side's interpretation of the same information was part of their obligation as journalists.

And that has had profound malignant consequences for how we conduct our democracy. 

[00:45:55] Matt Blumberg: don't think you'll get a lot of disagreement on that point. Before we go, tell us about the new project you're working on, which sounds absolutely fascinating. 

[00:46:04] Richard Norton Smith: Well, it's immense. I, I, made a career out of biting out, biting off more than I thought I could chew, which is why I write 800 page books.

at this stage in my life, I've spent 60 years thinking about this subject and working for presidents and running presidential libraries. Anyway, so it seemed like now or never to undertake a comprehensive history of the presidency, which was also an opportunity for me to say where I got it wrong.

Earlier, how I maybe changed my mind to be a little bit more generous toward the Franklin Pierce's of the world, and more critical perhaps of, of some other presidents. In any event, the idea is there will be a, an in depth chapter about every president and they won't exist in isolation. Most every book that purports to be, in effect, an encyclopedia of the presidents, gives you a slice.

But what's missing is real life. So for example, my chapter on Thomas Jefferson. Madison and Murrower. supporting players. John Adams, although he's out of office, is a voice, a one man Greek chorus. George Washington appears as Banquo's ghost. I mean, the fact is continuity is as much a part of history as change, in fact, arguably even more.

Because back to what I said earlier, one way of passing judgment, if you will, on presidents is, is not only what begins on inauguration day, but how they address the continuities, the themes, the events, the geographical or crisis, crises that run through multiple presidencies. And that's, it's that sense of life being lived that I'm trying to inject into this book.

[00:48:13] Matt Blumberg: What's it called and when's it due out? 

[00:48:15] Richard Norton Smith: Well, I should say the working title is The Other Side of Rushmore. 

[00:48:19] Matt Blumberg: I love that. And due out 25, 

[00:48:23] Richard Norton Smith: 26? Oh no, I don't, I'm, don't, there I I'll take a vow of silence. But as soon as I can, as soon as I can, as I can get it done. 

[00:48:36] Matt Blumberg: Well, I hope I can get in line early to buy a copy of it.

Richard Norton Smith, bestselling author, presidential historian, storyteller extraordinaire. Thank you so much for joining me today. 

[00:48:48] Richard Norton Smith: Oh, my pleasure. Thank you for your interest. 

[00:48:52] Matt Blumberg: Thank you for listening to the country over self podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please take a minute to give us five stars and leave us a review.

If you have an idea for an episode or want to reach Matt directly, please email podcast at country over self. Dot com.