Gary Ginsberg

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Matt Blumberg: Alright, ready to roll.

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Gary Ginsberg: Ready!

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Matt Blumberg: Hey?

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Matt Blumberg: Welcome to country over self defining moments in American history. I'm your host, Matt Blumberg, and I'm here today with Gary Ginsburg, lawyer, corporate adviser, political operative, and author of the New York Times. Bestseller, 1st friends.

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Matt Blumberg: the powerful.

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Matt Blumberg: unsung, and unelected people who shaped our presidents, which is a fantastic book if you have not read it. Gary, welcome to country over self.

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Gary Ginsberg: Thanks, Matt, and thanks for having me and congratulations on this new podcast.

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Matt Blumberg: Yeah, I'm I'm having a lot of fun with it. And I, you know, each episode we pick someone new to talk about. And today we're going to talk about Harry S. Truman.

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Matt Blumberg: So Truman, of course, became President almost immediately after the start of Franklin Roosevelt's 4th term in the spring of 1,945 he governed for almost 8 years, including his his own electoral win in 1,948, which, of course, is made famous or infamous by the picture of him holding up the Chicago Daily Tribune with the headline that Dewey beats Truman.

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Matt Blumberg: But you know Truman is fascinating because he he was one of those sort of accidental presidents

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Matt Blumberg: who is really under the radar for most Americans, I mean. He was a, you know, sort of lower level product of the Missouri Democratic machine. He had been Vice President for 73 days. He barely spoke to Roosevelt during that time, and then, all of a sudden.

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Matt Blumberg: there he was on the world stage in the middle of World War 2 or toward the end of World War 2

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Matt Blumberg: so, you know, he ended up being, I think, a very consequential President, and generally a very highly rated President, particularly Foreign Affairs and in World War 2 oversaw d day oversaw the atomic bomb you know, defined the Truman doctrine of containment. Got us, you know, into the Cold War in a strong way, helped create UN. And NATO and Korea like a lot of there's a lot of meat to the Truman Presidency.

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Matt Blumberg: So with a lot to work with.

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Matt Blumberg: Yeah, on our theme of country over self.

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Matt Blumberg: Is there a particular Truman story that you want to tell? So like, what's the what's the moment, or the vignette.

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Gary Ginsberg: I believe there is. And the moment that I want to focus on today, Matt is in the spring of 1948,

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Gary Ginsberg: Harry Truman has a very difficult decision to make on whether to recognize the state of Israel 11 min after it's officially declared, and in the face of

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Gary Ginsberg: universal and vehement opposition

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Gary Ginsberg: from his Secretary of Defense, his Secretary of State, and virtually the entire national security apparatus of the Us. Government.

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Gary Ginsberg: and it's a bold and courageous decision that, I think, viewed 76 years later, proved correct, and in the best long-term interest of the United States.

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Matt Blumberg: This is a great topic it is certainly topical at the moment. Given what's going on in Gaza and I'd love to just start with with some context around it. You know, we'll get to the actual decision and the impact. And hopefully, you'll have a chance to work in some stories about Eddie Jacobson, who was hit? Truman's 1st friend

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Matt Blumberg: from your book. But why don't we just start with the context? So what was the what was what was going on? I mean, obviously, people know the holocaust right? But what was going on in those.

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Matt Blumberg: you know, kind of weeks, months, years around this topic.

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Gary Ginsberg: Right. So a, as you pointed out, he takes office, you know, literally 3 months after Roosevelt is inaugurated. He knows nothing about foreign policy, you know. Roosevelt didn't even brief him on the Manhattan project, and the likelihood of having an atomic bomb. So he takes office

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Gary Ginsberg: also, just weeks before ve day in May, 1,945, and the defeat of the Nazis, and within weeks of ve day the world starts to realize the extent of the holocaust and the dire conditions of literally hundreds of thousands of displaced Jews

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Gary Ginsberg: who had survived the death camps, and now have nowhere to live, and are effectively imprisoned still, and at the same time the British were grappling with what to do with the land of Palestine, that they inherited in 1,917 as victors of World war, one

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Gary Ginsberg: following the fall of the Ottoman Empire.

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Gary Ginsberg: So shortly after that 1st World War ended, the British signed what's called the Belfort Declaration.

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Gary Ginsberg: which acknowledged its support for a Jewish homeland in Palestine, and so on one level a gift to a man. We're going to talk about, I hope. Shortly a scientist named Heim Weitzman, who discovered a process to mass produce acetone, which was the key ingredient in gunpower.

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Gary Ginsberg: and that gunpowder enabled the British to win the war, and when the war was over they asked him, What would you like as a reward for your work, and he said, I'd like a Jewish homeland in Palestine. So the British signed this Belfort declaration, which gave them kind of a moral obligation to come up with a Jewish homeland for Israel. So now it's 1,945.

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Gary Ginsberg: The Jews have nowhere to go, and there's a really embryonic movement afoot to create a Jewish homeland in the State, in in Palestine.

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Gary Ginsberg: and.

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Matt Blumberg: By the way, it's probably worth asking, or sort of pointing out.

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Matt Blumberg: The Ottoman Empire was pretty vast.

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Gary Ginsberg: Yes, he added, it.

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Matt Blumberg: Feed of it in World War one was, you know it. It left a chaos behind in lots of places, not, you know, not only Palestine, but there were a lot of.

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Matt Blumberg: you know, lots of countries and lines drawn on the map.

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Gary Ginsberg: That's right. There were, I think, there were 18 different nation states that could have been created out of the Ottoman Empire, and the British go ahead, and, you know, create a number of states for some of those national people

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Gary Ginsberg: following the 1st World War. The Jews made up about 18% of the Ottoman Empire in terms of population. So technically, they would have been entitled to 18% of the land that they had essentially acquired in winning that war and taking over the Empire. So there is. Certainly there are many people in the British Government who want to create a Jewish State.

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Gary Ginsberg: But now we've got the complication and the urgency of the end of the war, and all these displaced Jews.

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Gary Ginsberg: and

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Gary Ginsberg: I'll if I can just carry the the story forward. You have this the same time you have Harry Truman.

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Gary Ginsberg: who is raised a Baptist. He's a student of the Bible, and he's watching with horror what's happening to the quarter of a million Jews who survived the holocaust and are now left in camps on a continent with no family, no money, no housing, and no prospects really for any kind of decent future.

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Gary Ginsberg: And as a student of the Bible, Truman understood, he kind of viscerally understood. I think the Jewish longing for a state of their own in Palestine, and he was really moved by the call of these displaced people, who wanted, 1st and foremost to emigrate to Palestine. Second choice was the Us. The Us. Didn't didn't actually have

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Gary Ginsberg: an immigration bill in place to allow the Jews to go to United States, if you can believe it at that point. So Truman is really vexed by this problem, and he's deeply, personally engaged. So he asked one of his closest advisors to travel to Europe in 45, and to report on the conditions of these remaining Jews.

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Gary Ginsberg: and the report he gets back. Matt is recommends mass population transfer of the Jews from Europe to Palestine?

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Gary Ginsberg: And he's really moved by just how emotional the situation is for these Jews.

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Gary Ginsberg: The problem now, though, is that the British have changed governments. Churchill, who was a big believer in a Jewish state, loses to Cleminatly a Liberal, and the Liberal Government now won't allow any of these Jews to emigrate to Palestine, because they don't yet know what to do with the land of Palestine.

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Gary Ginsberg: They actually interdict a number of Jews who try to get in, and thousands of them actually end up remaining in camps in Cyprus.

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Gary Ginsberg: So in the face of all this British and decision.

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Gary Ginsberg: Really, it's extreme handwriting by the British

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Gary Ginsberg: the UN. Steps in. And now let's fast forward. 1947.

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Matt Blumberg: The UN. Has existed for a hot minute. At this point.

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Gary Ginsberg: 5 min. Exactly. So the UN figures. Okay, this is an issue. We we're kind of, you know, by our mission. This is something we should take on.

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Gary Ginsberg: So they pass a resolution. In November, 1,947, Rev. Resolution, 181, recommending, dividing the land into 2 sovereign States, a Jewish State, and an Arab state, with the city of Jerusalem under UN. Control. Now, remember, Jews have been on the land of Palestine for 4,000 years the Arabs have been on the land for nearly the same amount of time.

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Gary Ginsberg: Jewish immigration started really in earnest in the late 18 hundreds with Theodor Herzl's beginning the movement of Zionism, and from the 18 eighties, 18 nineties up till 1,947 they had come in droves to the point where there were 600,000 Jews living there. So the Jews had a claim to a State. The Arabs obviously had a claim to the State. So the UN. Passes this resolution. The United States votes for it.

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Gary Ginsberg: The Jews accept it, the Arabs reject it. The Arabs go to war

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Gary Ginsberg: immediately.

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Gary Ginsberg: So now we're into the spring of 1,948. It's a Presidential election year, I should add.

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Gary Ginsberg: and Harry Truman has to decide what to do when the British mandate ends.

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Gary Ginsberg: Now the British mandate was basically open, ended. But after the UN. Announced this resolution and passed this resolution, the UN. The British. I'm sorry, announced that on May 15, th 1,948 come hell or high water. They're getting out. They're done

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Gary Ginsberg: so now. Harry Truman has to make a really difficult decision. Do you

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Gary Ginsberg: basically continue the UN trusteeship meaning the UN. Effectively determines what happens in Palestine, because the the partition plan which had passed is already dead by the spring of 1948, because the 2 sides are at war, and the Arabs have said, there's no scenario by which they will live side by side with a Jewish state?

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Gary Ginsberg: Or do they recognize an independent Jewish State? And the Israeli is the leaders of this burgeoning state have made it very clear that when the British leave Palestine

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Gary Ginsberg: at midnight on May 15, th they're going to recognize their own State. They haven't named it yet, but they've made it very clear to the world. There is going to be a Jewish state in the ashes of the British mandate.

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Gary Ginsberg: So that's really the context in which I want to talk about Harry Truman and his decision to recognize the State.

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Gary Ginsberg: and remember this, there's 1 other thing I should, I should point out. There's an act of war now in March of 1,948, when Harry Truman is now sitting down and grappling with this decision. There's thousands of Jews fighting hundreds of thousands of Arabs. Their force is exponentially larger than the Jewish force, and there's a question whether the Jews are going to be able to hold out.

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Gary Ginsberg: and the only weapons being furnished to the Jews at this point are coming from the Czechs.

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Gary Ginsberg: and what they can commandeer on their own. So at this point the British are exhausted by the whole experience.

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Gary Ginsberg: They're ready to leave, and the decision is now for Truman in March and April of 1948. To decide this, did he continue to support the trusteeship

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Gary Ginsberg: block, effectively blocking the creation of a Jewish State in the near term, or recognize a State that everyone knows will be declared immediately upon the British, leaving on the 15.th

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Matt Blumberg: So what? What were some of the forces against him? Declaring support for Israel? And what were some of the forces in favor of it other than the the obvious ones.

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Gary Ginsberg: Yeah. So you would think that the obvious force would be Jewish voters. And, in fact, some of the people who are

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Gary Ginsberg: against Truman recognizing a state, think that he's going to recognize it because it will be in his political interest. It's not actually clear that that's the case. The reformed Jews of America are dead set against it. There are vast swaths of the Jewish population in the United States, including voters who don't actually want a Jewish State, which seems kind of

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Gary Ginsberg: counterintuitive today. But it was true, then

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Gary Ginsberg: the reality is the entire foreign policy. Establishment is against this state for 2 reasons. One is, they believe that you will antagonize the Arabs, not just the Arabs that are living in Palestine, but the Arabs in

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Gary Ginsberg: Jordan, Syria.

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Gary Ginsberg: Iraq, Iran, Egypt to the point where Saudi Arabia to the point where there will be an oil bar boycott of the United States that will be crippling to the United States economy, and in an election year, if you have gas prices that, you know, go up 50 to 100%, which is what would happen in a boycott. You're going to be pretty darn unpopular. So there is a political reason not to

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Gary Ginsberg: recognize the Jewish State.

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Gary Ginsberg: There is another reason which is the Soviets. There was a sense that if America recognized a Jewish state, the Soviets, which were already being quite aggressive in laying down this iron curtain across the continent of Europe, and Churchill had warned about that.

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Gary Ginsberg: as we know, a couple of years earlier, and NATO is about to be formed a year later, they're worried that the Soviets are going to move right into the region and basically create a sphere of influence in the Middle East. That would be averse to us interests, and they think it would be foolhardy for the President to do anything to antagonize the Russians any further than they're antagonized. At this point.

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Matt Blumberg: Was anyone. Was anyone concerned about Russia? I feel like I read this somewhere, although I don't know if it was your book. Russia, recognizing Israel.

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Matt Blumberg: and sort of getting out ahead of that.

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Gary Ginsberg: There was, but I think the bigger fear Matt was taking advantage of this, perceived siding

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Gary Ginsberg: against or with the Jews against the Arabs that would allow them to kind of come in and create this sphere. So it turns out, as as I'll explain later, they are the 1st country to provide de jure recognition

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Gary Ginsberg: of the state of Israel when Truman does declare it, it's more de facto than de jure. So the Soviets end up

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Gary Ginsberg: doing exactly that, recognizing it. But they do not end up ever siding with Israel, and, in fact, become an implacable foe. For a long time.

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Matt Blumberg: So the so the foreign policy establishment is against this, including it's probably worth calling out. George Marshall, who is sort of you know, the the Titan of of us.

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Gary Ginsberg: So I was gonna get to that. I mean he. And he is not only the tight. He's the most popular politician in the United States. He was time man of the year in 1,947. He is credited with winning the war. If you polled any potential Presidential candidate in 1,948. He's far and away the most popular he could have run on either party, and if you cross George Marshall and George Marshall comes out against you.

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Gary Ginsberg: retires as Secretary of State, resigns in Peak, as we've seen with other Secretaries of State. It's devastating to Harry Truman.

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Gary Ginsberg: Not only George Marshall, though, Matt. It's it's also James Forestall, who's the Secretary of Defense. It's the entire establishment of the newly formed Department of Defense, and the entire establishment of the Department of State.

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Matt Blumberg: So. So how did the decision go down? What was his calculus.

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Gary Ginsberg: So he's very cautious.

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Gary Ginsberg: There's a couple of elements that I'd I'd love to bring in one of which is

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Gary Ginsberg: how he. So let's let's step back a couple of couple of months.

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Gary Ginsberg: It's March.

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Gary Ginsberg: and he's been

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Gary Ginsberg: really hectored to death by the Jews who are in favor of a Jewish state.

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Gary Ginsberg: and they come to the White House. They bombard him with telegrams, phone calls. He is fed up with the whole issue, and in March has effectively said, I'm washing my hands of this. To hell with it! I'm going to let it become a UN trusteeship and see where the chips fall.

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Gary Ginsberg: and one night in the middle of March the phone rings at the home of a have a very like middle class nondescript

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Gary Ginsberg: haberdasher. It's a word you've probably not heard in your life.

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Gary Ginsberg: A man who sells.

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Matt Blumberg: You've read a Truman biography, but really only if you've read a Truman biography.

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Gary Ginsberg: Correct. Correct. So there's a man named Eddie Jacobson.

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Gary Ginsberg: He was Harry Truman's best friend, not known in history at this point, not really known to the wide swath of Americans, but known to Jews as Harry Truman's best friend of many, many years. At that point he had known Harry Truman for 45 years they met. When Harry was 23 Jacobson was 15. Jacobson drops out of college.

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Gary Ginsberg: goes to work for a haberdashery, selling men's clothing, and every day for the next few years Eddie would come to the bank where Harry Truman was a 23 year old teller and make the stores deposits, and he and Truman struck up what would become, as I say, a lifelong, best friendship.

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Gary Ginsberg: They serve in the war. Together they open up their own haberdashery together in 1,921. It closes a year later, when there's a recession that hits Kansas City. But they stay best friends. Truman rises through the political ranks comes Chief Judge of Cook County, becomes a Senator, vice President. Then President Harry stays a traveling salesman selling men's clothes out of his car for 45 years.

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Gary Ginsberg: But in 1,948 in March he gets a phone call from a very prominent Jew, and he says

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Gary Ginsberg: we've got a big problem

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Gary Ginsberg: time. Weitzman, the man I mentioned earlier is sitting in New York. He flew. He took a boat over from

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Gary Ginsberg: Israel to see Harry Truman to convince him of the necessity of recognizing a Jewish state, and Harry Truman won't see him, because he's just so disgusted with Jews. He won't see any Jews anymore. He won't engage in this issue, and you're the only one who can get to him. Eddie. Now, Eddie White, now Eddie Jacobson had never asked a thing

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Gary Ginsberg: of Harry Truman. That's partly why their relationship worked so well. They were each independent minded. They had a complete merging of values and interests. They never needed anything from the other, and they just reveled in each other's presences and and it was just a perfect friendship.

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Gary Ginsberg: But Eddie Jacobson cares deeply about creating a Jewish state, so he says, I'll write a note to Truman. See what what's going on. He writes a note to Truman. Truman writes right back and says, Eddie, I'm not dealing with this issue. I'm sick of the Jews. He effectively says what he says to another group

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Gary Ginsberg: slightly earlier in this. In this scenario he says, you know Jesus Christ couldn't keep the Jews happy in his lifetime, and he was a Jew. How am I supposed to keep him happy.

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Gary Ginsberg: So he's he says to Hetty, don't waste your time. I'm not dealing with it.

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Gary Ginsberg: He gets that letter, and Eddie does something. He's never done before, gets on a plane, flies halfway across the country.

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Gary Ginsberg: walks up the north driveway of the White House, walks into the appointment secretary's office. Matt Connelly, and he says, I want to see Harry

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Gary Ginsberg: now. Matt Connelly knows their best friends, and he says, Of course you can see Harry, he's in the office right now. But do me one favor.

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Gary Ginsberg: Do not raise the issue of Palestine. He does not want to talk about it.

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Gary Ginsberg: so he says, of course I won't. I won't won't even bring it up.

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Gary Ginsberg: So he walks into the oval office, and Truman sitting at the desk, and he's like

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Gary Ginsberg: Eddie. What are you doing here

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Gary Ginsberg: what you know? There's he's he's literally just walked in unannounced, and he says.

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Gary Ginsberg: I'm here

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Gary Ginsberg: that to talk about a very specific issue. But they make some small talk, and then German says, Well, what what's the issue you want to talk about? He said. I want to talk about Palestine.

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Gary Ginsberg: and you need to see Chaim Weizman.

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Gary Ginsberg: And at that point Truman starts screaming at him, turns red face, starts banging his fist on the desk, talks about how he's been disrespected by Jews, talks about the frustration of the whole issue, and says I'm not going to deal with it.

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Gary Ginsberg: and he says I don't want to talk another word about it.

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Gary Ginsberg: and Eddie doesn't know what to do.

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Gary Ginsberg: and for the 1st time in his life Eddie says that he thought Harry Truman was an anti-semite.

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Gary Ginsberg: and it's a remarkable thing for him to say, after 45 years of enjoying a close friendship with him.

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Gary Ginsberg: So he's looking around the Oval Office trying to figure out how he can appeal to this implacable person, and he sees a bust of Andrew Jackson, and he knows that Andrew Jackson is

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Gary Ginsberg: Harry Truman's hero in life.

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Gary Ginsberg: and he says to Harry Truman, You know you have a hero in your life. It's Andrew Jackson.

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Gary Ginsberg: my hero in life is Chaim Weitzman.

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Gary Ginsberg: and you know what Andrew Jackson would have done in a situation like this. He wouldn't have been

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Gary Ginsberg: cowed by a bunch of people who are annoying him. He would have done the courageous and right thing, and the courageous and right thing. Harry, you know it, and I know it is to see Heim Weitzman, and to let him make the case for a Jewish state.

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Gary Ginsberg: Truman then turns his back to Eddie.

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Gary Ginsberg: looks out on the rose garden, starts drumming his his hands on his desk.

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Gary Ginsberg: and finally turns around. He says, God damn it, you bald head headed son of a bitch! I'll see him!

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Gary Ginsberg: It was the happiest moment of Eddie's life. He says, Thank you to President, runs out of the

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Gary Ginsberg: White House, goes back to the Mayflower Hotel, Downs, 2 Bourbons, and

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Gary Ginsberg: realizes that he may have now broken the logjam. 3 days later Heim Weitzman walks into the White House. He makes a very personal, persuasive appeal to Harry Truman and Harry Truman is now back on

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Gary Ginsberg: the bandwagon of creating a Jewish State. That was the key moment, all because of a friend being willing to speak to his friend the President in a way that no aid Staffer could have ever spoken to him, and broken this logjam that was keeping

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Gary Ginsberg: the Jews from realizing a State.

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Gary Ginsberg: So now we have to fast forward to the actual decision point, which is right up at May 15, th

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Gary Ginsberg: 1948.

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Gary Ginsberg: Truman knows he's got all these opponents at the State Department and

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Gary Ginsberg: at the Department of Defense. So he convenes a meeting in the Oval office to have a showdown

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Gary Ginsberg: to see exactly where everybody is. And he asked Clark Clifford, who becomes quite famous in the Johnson Administration for being a Secretary of Defense and kind of the counselor to the Presidents known for being one of the wisest men in the country in the fifties and sixties and seventies, and he asked Clark Clifford to prepare an argument like he's in front of the Supreme Court.

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Gary Ginsberg: and so on Friday, May 12, th

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Gary Ginsberg: he convenes a meeting with

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Gary Ginsberg: with George Marshall Robert Lovett, his deputy, Forrestle

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Gary Ginsberg: and

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Gary Ginsberg: and Cart Clifford, and he asks

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Gary Ginsberg: Marshall to make the argument against recognizing a state.

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Gary Ginsberg: The arguments made by Lovett. He says all the things I had said earlier about the Russian, the Soviets moving in about an oil oil embargo about this being unnecessarily provocative, that the Jews were going to be run over anyway, and that we were siding with the wrong party.

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Gary Ginsberg: Lovett then piles on, makes the same arguments. Then he turns to Clifford and Clifford.

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Gary Ginsberg: invoking Deuteronomy, invoking the holocaust, invoking 2,000 years of Jewish presence on the land, makes an impassioned plea for why Truman should recognize the State

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Gary Ginsberg: as he's finishing up. George Marshall turns red faced, gets very angry, and says to Truman, Why is this man here making an argument? He is not a foreign policy advisor. He's a domestic advisor. Truman gets very upset with with Marshall, and says, because I asked him to come here.

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Gary Ginsberg: Marshall then says, Well, let me tell you something. Mr President, if you go ahead and recognize a Jewish State, I can tell you. It's very likely that I will not vote for you as President, and the implication of that statement, the hardest statement that he ever ever said in that office, and the hardest statement that was ever directed to Truman as President, the the most difficult line he heard as President, he said later in his memoir.

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Gary Ginsberg: The implication was that he would go public and say that he would not vote for Harry Truman, and that would be devastating to Truman in a race where he was not a particularly powerful, strong leader, or in a very strong poll position at that point to win the election in November. So the stakes were raised significantly higher at that meeting on May 12th

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Gary Ginsberg: it gets worked out

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Gary Ginsberg: on May 13.th

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Gary Ginsberg: There's a lot of back and forth between Clifford and Marshall's.

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Gary Ginsberg: deputy Robert Lovett. They work it out so that Marshall will not make public his peak. It gives Truman the opportunity now to recognize the State. He believes, on moral grounds, strategic grounds, historical grounds that the Jews should have a State, and so the last remaining hurdle of Marshall is removed.

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Gary Ginsberg: and 11 min after the State is declared at midnight in Jerusalem on May 15, th 1,948. Harry Truman is the 1st foreign leader to recognize the State of Israel.

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Matt Blumberg: Such a is such a dramatic story. And

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Matt Blumberg: you know, there's there's obviously a that was a very consequential decision for history.

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Matt Blumberg: What were the consequences of the decision for Truman.

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Gary Ginsberg: Well, I think the impact on

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Gary Ginsberg: Truman's decision is profound on a personal level and then on a historical level on a historical level. Well, for one, it conferred a standing and legitimacy on this fudgling new state

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Gary Ginsberg: in its 1st 11 min, that it otherwise would have taken years to achieve.

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Gary Ginsberg: Most crucially, I think it undercut the messages that the State and Defense Departments had been sending to the rest of the world, that the us

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Gary Ginsberg: oppose the advent of a Jewish State, and by recognizing the State, you know, Truman basically opened the door almost immediately for other States

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Gary Ginsberg: to recognize this Jewish state.

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Gary Ginsberg: And indeed, you know, actually, I'm sorry. Go ahead.

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Matt Blumberg: Did they.

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Gary Ginsberg: They did. Yeah, I was gonna say, within days a host of countries follow the Us.

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Gary Ginsberg: first, st actually, ironically, is the Soviet Union. 3 days later, and, as I said a moment ago, they do a de jure which gives it an even gives it the power of law.

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Gary Ginsberg: After the Soviet Union. It's Poland, Czechoslovakia, I think. Yugoslavia, Ireland, which is, you wouldn't expect Ireland in South Africa

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Gary Ginsberg: are the ones that then follow suit.

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Gary Ginsberg: I think on a psychological level that it it cements an alliance.

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Gary Ginsberg: that now, 76 years later, you know, I think we're seeing is steadfast and true between the world's greatest democracy and the only free and democratic state in the Middle East.

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Gary Ginsberg: And

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Gary Ginsberg: yeah, you may not like Israel's conduct in Gaza, or you could lament the lack of a Palestinian State.

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Gary Ginsberg: But you can't. I don't think you can deny that the alliance between the United States and Israel has been of crucial, strategic and tactical importance both to the United States and to Israel. And and I would say, that's true on a military level and economic level on a cultural level. Really, in every regard.

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Matt Blumberg: Do you think, Truman, when people think of Truman? Is this on the list.

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Gary Ginsberg: Certainly is for people who care about

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Gary Ginsberg: the state of Israel. I can tell you that it was taught in every Hebrew school in the seventies as an example of bold

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Gary Ginsberg: presidential leadership, and also obviously the friendship that he enjoyed with Eddie Jacobson.

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Gary Ginsberg: Truman himself, in his Memoirs, describes it as his proudest moment.

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Gary Ginsberg: I think he really reveled in the historic nature of the decision. You know he was he. He is remembered in Israel as King Cyrus.

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Gary Ginsberg: King Cyrus was the king of Persia, who in 5 37,

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Gary Ginsberg: allowed the Jews who had been forced out of Israel with the destruction of the 1st temple, and were living in Persia as as refugees. He allowed them, through an edict, to go back to Israel. It was considered one of the great acts in

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Gary Ginsberg: Biblical in in the post Biblical era, and I think Truman

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Gary Ginsberg: saw himself a little bit like King Cyrus.

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Gary Ginsberg: and saw the you know he dies, dies, you know, quite late, dies in the seventies, and I think he saw what it had wrought. You know this flowering democratic country that

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Gary Ginsberg: you know, despite its size, despite its enemies surrounding it. Despite, you know, all the odds have been able to create a really vibrant state by the time he dies, and I think if you look at his memoirs, if you look at awards he received, he took great pride and delight, and having, you know, made that all happen.

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Matt Blumberg: Well, that's a great place to put a PIN in that story. So thank you for sharing that.

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Matt Blumberg: Let's close with a few rapid fire questions. So we just talked about Truman.

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Matt Blumberg: If you had what was on the cutting room floor, if I had, you know, if I said to you, hey? Let's do a second episode of of country over self. Who are we talking about?

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Gary Ginsberg: Well, I didn't write about George Hw. Bush, but I was always for my 1st friendship, but I was always fascinated because I, you know, was a total political junkie during the 1988 campaign, actually worked on the 1988 campaign, and I was at

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Gary Ginsberg: the conventions when George Bush said the 3, probably the

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Gary Ginsberg: 6 most famous words ever uttered at a in a convention speech.

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Matt Blumberg: Let me let me let me guess, read my lips. No new taxes.

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Gary Ginsberg: Exactly exactly right, and he was warned not to say it by a lot of people.

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Gary Ginsberg: but he was also warned that if he didn't solidify the right wing of his party. He might not win the General Election, you know, 4 months later.

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Gary Ginsberg: so he says, read my lips, no new taxes. The crowd goes wild.

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Gary Ginsberg: He ends up, you know, winning in a rout over Dukakis. But just as the critics warned him, in the summer of 88 by 1,990. The country is in a bit of a recession.

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Gary Ginsberg: They're not generating enough tax revenue to meet the needs of the country, and George Bush is faced with a really difficult decision. Does he stick with his pledge and do the politically expedient thing, or does he raise taxes so that you don't have to make deep cuts in crucial programs that would have really damaged the country's fab fabric. And so George Bush

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Gary Ginsberg: makes the brutal decision to raise taxes in the 1,990 omnibus Reconciliation Tax Act.

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Gary Ginsberg: And sure enough, in 1,992

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Gary Ginsberg: he loses, you know it's it's it's a close election. I wouldn't say it was a cliffhanger, but he loses to Bill Clinton, and one of the reasons was a lot of right wing. Republicans who had voted for him in 1,988 on this tax pledge, said, to hell with him! Not going to vote, and he lost. But I think that was a really bold, courageous decision. By George Bush to put country over self.

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Matt Blumberg: I. That is a good one, for sure.

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Matt Blumberg: Alright quick question number 2. Let's do the opposite. So what's the most poignant example you can come up with for a President choosing self over country, and let's exclude anyone that is still living.

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Gary Ginsberg: Oh, wow! Oh, man, I didn't know you're gonna ask that question. That's a there's so many right?

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Gary Ginsberg: let me.

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Gary Ginsberg: I mean they

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Gary Ginsberg: okay, I'll give you one.

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Gary Ginsberg: Franklin Roosevelt deciding in 1,944 to run again.

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Gary Ginsberg: He knew he was dying.

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Gary Ginsberg: and

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Gary Ginsberg: he knew he'd maybe had a few months if he's reelected

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Gary Ginsberg: going into 1945.

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Gary Ginsberg: And yeah, just this kind of ties back to what we

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Gary Ginsberg: talked about earlier. He picks a vice president, Harry Truman, who's not equipped to become President, and rather than start to school him on what he is going to face, because

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Gary Ginsberg: Roosevelt knows he's dying.

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Gary Ginsberg: He does nothing of the sort. He pretends like he's healthy, tends like he's healthy throughout the campaign, knowing he's only got months and never briefs him never brings him in, so that on the day he has to take the oath of office on April 13th he's totally unprepared, ill equipped to start off with

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Gary Ginsberg: the the requisite knowledge and gravitas to govern effectively.

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Matt Blumberg: That is a great that is a great example. Yes, you. You can imagine Truman's surprise on Day 2, when he finds out about the atomic bomb.

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Gary Ginsberg: Exactly.

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Matt Blumberg: Alright! Quick! Question. 3 let's fast. Forward to the 2,024 Presidential race.

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Matt Blumberg: Biden's withdrawal from the race

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Matt Blumberg: at some level was an act of choosing country over self. But my question for you is not not what you think of it. It's what do you? How do you think history is going to regard that decision? Is it going to be

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Matt Blumberg: viewed as country over self, or is it going to be.

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Matt Blumberg: hey? It was a scramble, and he never should have been in the race to begin with, because he everyone knew he was too old.

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Matt Blumberg: Does it depend on the outcome of the race.

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Matt Blumberg: How do you think history will judge that.

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Gary Ginsberg: I think it all depends.

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Gary Ginsberg: The result of the race, the outcome.

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Gary Ginsberg: If he loses, I think he will be vilified

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Gary Ginsberg: forever.

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Gary Ginsberg: and viewed as selfish.

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Gary Ginsberg: slow, slow acting putting self over country and taking so long to get out.

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Gary Ginsberg: If

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Gary Ginsberg: the Vice President wins, I think he will be celebrated for putting country over self

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Gary Ginsberg: and doing the right thing. I think it's going to be binary.

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Matt Blumberg: As they say, history is written by the by, the winners.

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Gary Ginsberg: Exactly.

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Matt Blumberg: All right. Last question. Knowing everything you know about our history, our system of government.

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Matt Blumberg: which so many people are calling dysfunctional at the moment. If you could wave a magic wand.

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Matt Blumberg: and you could make one or 2 changes to our system to strengthen it.

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Matt Blumberg: and whether that requires a constitutional amendment or not.

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Matt Blumberg: What would they be.

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Gary Ginsberg: Hmm.

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Gary Ginsberg: I would make

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Gary Ginsberg: a concerted push on a State by State basis

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Gary Ginsberg: to

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Gary Ginsberg: require more civic education

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Gary Ginsberg: into middle and high school curricula across the country, because I think that one of the biggest problems that we face as a democracy is a total ignorance about the way government works, the values that underlie.

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Gary Ginsberg: What a democratic country is, how government functions.

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Gary Ginsberg: what the 3 branches are, how they entered, what the interplay is, and I think, lacking that basic knowledge has really undermined the strength of our democracy. And I would require it in 8th grade, the 11th grade. I, you know, we've we've become so skills based that we've lost this thread of the importance of civics in the curricula.

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Gary Ginsberg: So

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Gary Ginsberg: I know it's hard to do. But I would require it.

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Matt Blumberg: That's a great place to end this great conversation. Gary Ginsburg, author of 1st friends, thank you so much for joining country over self.

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Gary Ginsberg: Thank you very much for having me, Matt.